"Working" with the right
By Steve
Ahlquist for UpRiseRI
On Thursday January 19th Uprise RI alongside other local journalists sat down with Rhode Island’s United States Representatives David Cicilline and Seth Magaziner, both Democrats. Representative Cicilline has served since 2011, Representative Magaziner was recently sworn in for his first term, after a long delay as Republicans in the House, who hold a small majority, struggled to elect Kevin McCarthy to the Speakership.
This conversation was
held in Representative Cicilline’s Pawtucket office with a small number of
local journalists. It was rather informal, with a good back and forth in
questions. The transcript has been edited for clarity, you can watch the full
interview here:
David Cicilline: We want to reflect on the first couple of weeks of the new Congress. I’m delighted to say I have a new colleague and I’m no longer the most junior member of the House delegation from Rhode Island. I think what has been disappointing to me is that the first legislative week was filled with a set of bills that really didn’t focus on the urgent priorities of Rhode Islanders. Many of our Republican colleagues ran on doing everything they could to reduce costs, and bring down the cost of energy and food, and to tackle inflation to help create good paying jobs.
But if you look at the
legislative week, what are the first things they’re going to do? The very first
bill that they passed was a bill to gut the Internal Revenue Service, to make it
take much longer for Rhode Islanders to get their refund checks and to require
folks to stand in line longer because of the lack of staff. It will add $114 billion
to the deficit and will make it easier for people at the highest income to
avoid paying their fair share. They did a series of bills related to their long-time effort to enact a national abortion ban and a number of other bills that
don’t reflect the priorities of Rhode Islanders. So, I think it was a very bad
omen of what we’re going to see over the next two years. I remain very
committed to focusing on the issues I know matter to Rhode Island:
protecting Social Security and Medicare, advancing our Make in
America agenda, focusing on reducing gun violence and delivering real results,
[such as] community project funding, bringing resources back to Rhode Island
and all that work.
With that I’ll turn it
over to Seth to talk about some the other issues and his first impressions. And
I probably should apologize to Congressman Magazine that he had to wait so
long to be sworn in.
Seth Magaziner: Thank
you guys for coming and thank you for to Congressman Cicilline for hosting.
I’ll just say it is a tremendous honor to represent our state in Congress and
I’m committed to working hard on the priorities that I ran on: fighting for
working Rhode Islanders by lowering the cost of living, lowering drug prices,
energy prices, protecting Social Security and Medicare, and protecting abortion
rights. It was an interesting first couple of weeks for sure. We saw the chaos
on the Republican side during the multiple votes for Speaker. What is clear to
me from all of that is that the most extreme elements of the Republican caucus
are really calling the shots now and Kevin McCarthy showed that he
will bend over backwards for the most extreme voices in his party.
I worry about what
that will mean for what the rest of the two-year session will look like. I
should also say that I’m very fortunate to have a senior colleague who’s been
really terrific in helping me learn the ropes. David has been fantastic.
[Former Congressman] Jim Langevin was, as well, during the transition
process, so thank you for that. I’m still hopeful. I’m still hopeful that there
are reasonable Republicans and people on both sides of the aisle who actually
care about getting things done. But I had the same thought that David did last
week, which is, after this long campaign session where the Republicans spent
millions and millions of dollars focusing on, and rightfully so, the high cost
of energy, the high cost of healthcare, the high cost of groceries – Where is
the legislation on drug prices? Where is the legislation on energy prices, on
food prices, on strengthening Social Security?
There’s been none of
that and no talk of it really. The first week of legislation was these
“messaging bills” that didn’t actually do anything to advance the priorities of
Rhode Island or the American people. Already now they’re lurching toward a
debate over whether the country’s going to continue to pay its bills
or not, as opposed to focusing on the issues that we know people
care about. I’ll stop there. I’m still hopeful. I’m ready to get to work. But
it’s a challenging environment that we find ourselves in.
Steve Klamkin [WPRO]: You
ran for office hoping and enumerating a number of things you’d like to see get
done. Do you worry? None of it’s going to happen.
Seth Magaziner: My
first impressions, and David can speak more authoritatively on this than I can
after two weeks, but my first impressions are that there really are Republicans
in Congress who want to get things done on these issues, and they’re
approachable. I spent a lot of my time that first week – when we had our
multiple votes for speaker – going around the chamber and introducing myself to
people. There are Republicans who care about not just lowering inflation, but
bringing back manufacturing jobs and figuring out what are we going to do about
Social Security. The problem is that the leadership on the Republican side has
already sold-out Congress to the most extreme elements in their party. My hope
is that we will be able to do things procedurally, with the reasonable
Republicans who are left, to get things done. But the leadership on the
Republican side is showing that they’re going to do whatever the most extreme
elements in their party want them to do.
David Cicilline: The only thing I would add to that is that Speaker McCarthy made a set of secret deals with this group of 20 or so folks who had been voting against him becoming Speaker of the House. We don’t know what the provisions of those agreements are, what he committed to doing and not doing. I think Seth is absolutely right. I think there’s a cohort of our colleagues on the Republican side that do want to get stuff done. The question is, will they be willing to work with the vast majority of Democrats and buck their own party leadership to actually deliver results to the American People?
Steve Klamkin: Obviously, you guys are sitting here, so there’s not going to be a vote to raise the debt ceiling or amend it in anyway,. Should we be concerned about this?
Seth Magaziner: Very.
So I think what we need to do is explain to people what the consequence will be
in the lives of everyday Rhode Islanders if the country were to stop paying its
bills. Because this is not just a bunch of politicians fighting in Washington.
There are real life consequences. If the country were to default on its
obligations, what would happen? Number one, interest rates would spike. If you
think that interest rates are high now – mortgage rates, lines of credit for
small businesses – those rates will go up significantly higher if there were to
be a default. If you’re a small business with a line of credit, if you are
someone who’s looking to retire and downsize and sell your house, or a young
family looking to buy a house, everything grinds to a halt. Your retirement
savings: the value is going to collapse. And then the country is going to have
to start making decisions about which bills it is going to pay or not pay.
Are we not going to
pay military salaries? Are we not going to pay Social Security benefits? Are we
not going to pay vendors, which are American companies that employ American
workers? People need to understand there are real life consequences to this
that are going to hit people in their wallets very hard. What’s frustrating to
me is that the extreme Republicans that are saying that they want to use the
debt ceiling as leverage haven’t even said what they want. They vaguely said
that they want spending cuts, but what spending cuts do they want? Is it Social
Security they want to cut? Is it education funding? Is it school lunches?
They’re not saying. It’s a very concerning situation and it’s foolish.
Steve Klamkin: Congressman
Magaziner may have said it all, Congressman Cicilline, but you’ve seen this
movie before.
David Cicilline: Yeah.
It’s very serious. I think Seth is absolutely right. We have to make sure
people understand what the implications are, what the real-life consequences
are if the United States defaults on its debt obligations. It’s also important
to recognize that this is money that has already been spent. We can have a real
debate about what we should do going forward, what we should spend money on or
not spend money on. We’re prepared to have that debate with our Republican
colleagues. But there shouldn’t be any debate that, if you have incurred a
debt, you pay your bills. It’s like when you get a credit card bill, you might
regret having bought something, but you have to pay the bill. There’s a
consequence if you don’t. I think there is a group of Republicans who
understand that, and I hope they will work with Democrats so that we can raise
the debt ceiling and not disrupt the economy of our country and devastate the
economic conditions of Rhode Islanders and people all across this country.
But there’s no doubt
that the Republican leadership and some of the most extreme members of the
Republican caucus are attempting to use this must do event as a way to exact
deep cuts in Social Security and Medicare, which they know we will not agree
to. We will never agree to those kinds of things. So they’re going to try to
play chicken with the full faith and credit of the United States. It’s
dangerous. It has real consequences. And I’m hopeful that we’re going to find a
group of Republicans that understand that, and that they’ll hear from the
business community about what this means for the economy long term, and that
we’ll have a solution that avoids a default on the United States’ debt.
Uprise RI: How do
you continue to protect Medicare and Social Security in the meantime? Because
this could go into the summer.
David Cicilline: Many
of these Republican candidates – I think is part of their written plan for the
new Congress. They have always been interested in cutting Social Security,
Medicare. They fundamentally don’t support these programs, right? One of the
reasons they gave a gigantic tax cut in the last congress when Trump
was still in office, was to reward their biggest donors and the wealthiest
people in this country. That was not paid for, and this is the second part of
that play. They give away a huge chunk of money to the top 1%, the millionaires
and billionaires – unpaid for – and then say, “Oh, we can’t afford this debt.
We have to cut Social Security and Medicare so we can pay for that.”
We are going to
continue to stand and fight for all Rhode Islanders. We know how important
those programs are to Rhode Islanders and seniors all across our state. We know
that there has been an ongoing effort by our Republican colleagues, throughout
the time I’ve been in Congress, to make cuts in Social Security and Medicare.
We beat them back every time. We’re going to do it again.
Dan McGowan [Boston
Globe]: How does this Republican Congress compare to the last time you
were in the minority? Is it harder to get anything done? Does it work out
politically, in your benefit, in the end?
David Cicilline: I
think it’s early. We’ve only been there two weeks. The Speakership of Kevin
McCarthy is predicated on reaching an agreement with the most extreme members
of his caucus, the most MAGA, ultra-right members of his caucus. He had to come
to some sort of agreement in order to get their votes and it took 15 votes or
whatever it was. So what’s different this time is they have really
significantly reduced the power of the Speaker in their rules. They have a very
small majority, a very small margin, and it’s being driven by this Freedom
Caucus within the Republican Caucus, which is the most extreme
component. So I think it’s going to be more challenging.
The good news is there
are about 20 Republicans who were elected in districts that President Biden
won. I think there is a group of Republicans that are going to be predisposed
to work with House Democrats because they know that their constituents want
them to get things done, to deliver on their priorities. I think they’re
nervous about the early days of this new Congress because it’s not what they
ran on. It’s not what their constituents expect. My hope is that we’re going to
be able to work with that cohort of House Republicans, the more moderate
Republicans, to actually get some things done. But it’s the most challenging
time that I’ve been there in terms of our being in the minority and the
majority being run by, or led by, a really small group of quite extreme people.
Herb Weiss: The Problem
Solvers Caucus is composed of equal number of Democrats and Republicans.
Will they be very instrumental in making the Democratic agenda happen and move
forward?
David Cicilline: They
have historically been very productive in terms of helping to bring together
Republican and Democrats. What makes me less certain in this new Congress is
the Republicans who are part of the Problem Solvers Caucus are not the
Republicans that are leading the Republican Caucus. They’re not the most
extreme. They are the more moderates. So while I think that’s a natural place
to start these discussions, I’m not sure they’re going to have the power within
the Republican conference to actually be successful. But it’s certainly a group
we’re going to look to in helping to forge bipartisanship in the house.
Dan McGowan: You
gotten your committee assignments yet?
Seth Magaziner: No.
No.
David Cicilline: He
was sworn in. I mean, come on.
Seth Magaziner: Yeah,
no. The contested speakership delayed everything. Not even the negotiations
around how many Democrat and Republican spots there will be on each committee.
Oftentimes those negotiations, I understand, happen before the session even
begins. Speaker McCarthy basically said he wasn’t going to start any of those
conversations until after the Speakership race. So everything’s been delayed by
a couple of weeks. It is yet another product of the early dysfunction on the
Republican side. But Congressman Cicilline is right: There are people on both
sides of the aisle that care about getting things done. There are issues where
I think there’s room for overlap.
The national media,
cable news, et cetera, they tend to focus on the areas of conflict, but there
are areas of agreement. The CHIPS Act passed with bipartisan support.
The infrastructure bill passed with
bipartisan support. On issues like promoting career and technical education
I’ve heard that there is a lot of desire to do something for that on the
Republican side and in the Education Committee. So I do think that there are
areas of overlap where it could be possible to get something done. One of the
things that’ll be interesting to watch is that one of the concessions Speaker
McCarthy made, in order to get his position, was making it easier for
amendments to be introduced on the floor by any member. That could be tricky
for him because it could lead to gridlock, but it could also give Democrats and
other more moderate Republicans the opportunity to do things by amendment to
get things done that actually might have been harder under the old rules.
David Cicilline: And
the other provision, which still exists, is a discharge petition. I we have an
issue that all of the Democrats support, and we can find four or five
Republicans to support it, we can use the discharge position, which requires
that once it’s signed by majority of the members that that bill be brought to
the floor immediately for a vote. You can imagine something like the debt ceiling
– one approach might where the Democrats do a discharge position and get five
or six Republicans who understand the consequences – and force a vote on a
clean debt ceiling.
Dan McGowan: When
you talk to potential Republicans who might be willing to do that, is it just,
“Look, I might get primaried?” Is that their biggest concern?
David Cicilline: In
those districts they were elected because they weren’t the most extreme
Republican. They typically had a primary against someone who was an ultra MAGA,
and they prevailed because their district is more divided. So they need to rely
on Democrats as well as Republicans to get elected. I don’t think in those
districts that they’re as worried about a primary. Some of them will be, but I
think those are districts where people made the case that they would come to
Washington, work with Democrats to get things done, and the debt ceiling vote
would give them a good opportunity to prove that they were serious about that.
Also, they understand, as Seth laid out, the very serious consequences of a
default in the lives of ordinary folks. It’s not just some abstract idea out
there. It’s going to have real life and pretty devastating consequences for
real people.
Uprise RI: Do you
think a default could result in the recession we’re all so worried about? This
could definitely trigger that, correct?
David Cicilline: No
question about it.
Uprise RI: What
do you do about the little traps they built into the new “weak Speaker” model
that would allow somebody to throw the entire house into disarray for days at a
time when we’re talking about issues that are very important like this? You can
imagine emergency stuff could come up – a hurricane somewhere or a terrorist
attack – and suddenly the house has to move. And generally that might overcome
the intransigence, but it might also not, the intransigence might still be
there. What does that do? Does it just gridlock in Congress and we stop?
Seth Magaziner: It’s
a real concern. I’m concerned about it. If it took them 15 tries to elect the Speaker,
it shows that there is a potential for real disarray under this Republican
leadership that could lead to real world consequences like you’re talking
about. What I keep coming back to though is that I believe strongly that in the
last two elections, the midterm election last year and the 2020 presidential
election, the American people rejected chaos. They were tired of the chaos from
the Trump years. They were tired of everything that happened during that
period. And if the Republicans in House leadership force a shut down or force a
default, or trigger a recession, they’re going to be punished pretty quickly
and pretty swiftly by the American people who are tired of the chaos and tired
of the nonsense. That’s what will hopefully spook some of these more reasonable
Republicans, the Republicans from the Biden districts, to work with Democrats
to break the stalemate because the American people aren’t going to stand for
it.
David Cicilline: One
thing I would say in addition to that is that contrasted with the last
Congress, where we came together as Republicans and Democrats for the biggest
investment to rebuild the infrastructure of our country, that we passed
the Inflation Reduction Act to bring down the
costs of healthcare and prescription drugs, and pass the CHIPS Act so we can
compete globally in the manufacturing of chips and rebuild our economy, and
the American Rescue Plan, which helped every
community respond to the consequences of Covid. We have a record of
extraordinary accomplishments in the last Congress when Democrats were in
control, and now the Republicans have to produce. We’re willing to work with
them and deliver for the American people. But that’s going to be the
comparison. I think Seth’s exactly right: If they continue to engage in this
sort of chaotic in-fighting, with no effort towards actually getting anything
done, they’re going to face the consequences in the next election. And
Democrats will come back into the majority.
Dan McGowan: We
learned today that Providence Police Chief Hugh Clements is going to DC.
I heard you played a role as an advocate for him. Can you tell us a little bit
more about that?
David Cicilline: Chief
Clements has been an extraordinary Police Chief, and I definitely shared with
the White House my confidence in him and the work that he has done in the City
of Providence and how deeply respected he is, not just in law enforcement, but
from community leaders and people in the African American and Latino
communities and other marginalized communities in our city. He has built
incredibly trusting relationships. I know he will be a magnificent leader of
that office. Although it’s a loss for the capital city, and I felt badly about
that, I knew it was something that he was interested in and would be great at,
and I was really proud to advocate for him.
Uprise RI: Can I
ask about the ongoing increase in white supremacist violence across the
country? I know in New Hampshire they just made some arrests and I think
there’s been some push in Massachusetts to do the same, but this is a
national issue. The Anti-Defamation League just put out a pretty big report
on this. Do you have any thoughts on that? With Congress being
limited, this doesn’t seem like the kind of issue you’ll be able to get into in
a deep way. So what do we do? How do we navigate that?
Seth Magaziner: Obviously
the rise in political violence nationally, from the far right, is very concerning.
And the fact that you have prominent elected officials and a prominent former
president actively cheerleading for a lot of these extreme elements is deeply,
deeply concerning. One of the things that the Republicans have done, which I
think we’re worried about, is they’ve created this new subcommittee that
essentially is set up to obstruct the Department of Justice and other
investigations into far right groups. Far right groups that in some cases have
colluded with sitting members of Congress, like on January 6th. So I think it’s
going to be very damaging for the relationship between the Department of
Justice, law enforcement agencies, intelligence agencies, and the United States
Congress. My hope is that it won’t impede any of those investigations or any of
those law enforcement activities into these hate groups. But certainly the
intent of this fringe element in the Republican caucus is to obstruct justice,
to obstruct law enforcement’s ability to intervene before violence occurs,
instead of just after the fact.
Steve Klamkin: Excuse
my ignorance, what is the subcommittee?
David Cicilline: It’s
called the Select Committee on the Weaponization of the Federal
Government. There’s no doubt there’s been a significant increase in
domestic terrorism and white nationalism and the FBI continues to identify that
as the greatest threat to the homeland: ongoing domestic terrorism by these
organizations. I think one of the things that has changed is that, sadly, we
have members of Congress who are amplifying some of this rhetoric which is
leading to the incitement of pretty serious violence. We have a former
president who is using these Qanon conspiracy theories on his social
media platforms. That was not normally the case and I think that has made the
problem worse. As Congressman Magaziner said, the other problem is the
Republicans just created this committee and this is really like shocking. This
is a committee that, at least according to the ruled provision, will be allowed
to investigate ongoing criminal investigations, which raises very serious
separation of power. That’s the purview of executive branch. But the idea that
Congress could go in and try to meddle or interfere or stop an ongoing criminal
investigation or prosecution of violent extremism is very dangerous, very
concerning. And when you think people like Congressman Jim Jordan are going to
be leading this effort, there’s a lot of reason to be concerned.
Seth Magaziner: Just
take it a step further: In those rule provisions they say that whoever’s
appointed to that committee will have the same level of security clearance and
access as a member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence, which is like
the committee that has access to the most deeply guarded secrets of the federal
government. There’s a bipartisan tradition of appointing people to that House
Select Committee on intelligence who are reasonable, responsible people. The
Republicans, even in recent years, have not typically appointed their most
extreme people to that committee. Now, on this new committee, they’re going to
have the same level of access to national security secrets. We don’t know who
they’re going to appoint to it yet, but this was one of the demands of those
holdouts during the McCarthy Speakership race.
On top of that they
just announced that they are going to appoint Marjorie Taylor Green to
be on the Homeland Security Committee, which is insane. I mean, this is an
individual who not only spread conspiracy theories about the 2020 election, but
has denied that a plane hit the Pentagon on 911, has spread antisemitic rumors,
has said that the Parkland School shooting was faked, and who has campaigned
openly with groups like the Three Percenters and the so-called American First
Patriots, some of the very organizations that have engaged in acts of violence
against our country. To appoint someone like that to the Homeland Security
Committee, that oversees law enforcement in this country, is tremendously
dangerous and something that we’re going to have to keep a very close eye on.
Steven Klamkin: How
have you either you met her?
David Cicilline: I’ve
met her. I’ve served with her.
Seth Magaziner: I
have not.
David Cicilline: I
served with her for the last two years. Let me tell a story that will, I think,
demonstrate why people like Marjorie Taylor Green have a real impact. Marjorie
Taylor Green used to go to the floor and file a motion to adjourn because it
has to be voted on immediately. We could be in the middle of the most
consequential debate and a motion to adjourn stops it because you have to vote
on the motion to adjourn. I came up with the idea of “Why don’t we change our
rules and require that in order to file a motion to adjourn, you must be on a
House Committee, because she was removed from the House Committees. It would be
a good way to stop it.
A reporter goes up to
Marjorie Taylor Green and said, “What do you think of Congressman Cicilline’s
proposal to change the rules to prevent you from continuing to do what you’re
doing?” And she says, “You mean Congressman Mussolini?” So I do a tweet back.:
My point is: We all
know what she’s about and how kind of crazy she is and her associations with
these horrible individuals and groups, but to the rest of the world, she’s a
sitting member of the United States Congress. What she does and what she says
has consequences. It was an important lesson to me that we can’t take for
granted that everyone dismisses these folks because they hold a position and
when they speak, people pay attention to what they say and do.
Dan McGowan: How
concerned are you guys about this whole situation with the classified documents
and President Biden kind of obscuring the bigger picture, leading to more
investigations and things like that? Do you guys both agree like, that was a
mistake?
I expect that they’ll
conduct a swift review. If you’re asking me, “Do I think my Republican
colleagues will misuse it and try to deflect from a lot of other things?” The
answer is yes. It’s kind of funny to watch some of my Republican friends, who
were dismissive of all of the activity of the former president in taking these
documents, refusing to return them, denying that he had them, and still refuse
to return them over a period of 18 months – they thought it was insignificant.
And now, of course, when inadvertently President Biden is in possession of some
documents, it has become absolutely the most serious violation and worthy of a
congressional investigation. I think the American people are smarter than that.
They know the difference between the two, they see the hypocrisy. President
Biden handled it exactly the way you would expect a President to handle it:
Report it immediately, turn them over immediately and to collaborate with any
review of the situation.
[Note: Since this
interview more documents were found to be in the possession of President Biden
and documents were found in the possession of former Vice President Michael
Pence.]
Uprise RI: The
war in Ukraine. Are you worried about the new Congress not being able to deal
with that and have you seen pushback against investing American dollars in that
effort?
David Cicilline: We
have, sadly, a number of Republican members in the House, who we fondly
describe as the Pro-Russia caucus, who have been very open about their
admiration of Vladimir Putin and their opposition to supporting the Ukrainian people
in this fight. I think Margarie Taylor Green said, if Republicans take control,
not one more penny will go to Ukraine. I don’t think that will be correct, but
I think there’s a lot of reason for concern. I think we’ve had good, strong,
bipartisan support in both the House and the Senate. I think everyone
understands that this is not just about Ukraine, it’s about freedom and
democracy around the world. And the rest of the cadre of tyrants and
kleptocrats and authoritarian leaders are watching to see the resolve of not
only the Europeans but the United States and other democracy loving countries
to see how committed we are to this fight because this won’t be the end if
Vladimir Putin is allowed to go into a country by force and redraw the lines of
that country. No country in Europe and no country in the world is safe from
that kind of aggression. There’s been strong bipartisan support. I think we
have the responsibility in Congress to continue to make the case why it
matters, not just to the Ukrainian people, but to the world. So long as the
Ukrainians, in my view, are willing to fight and die for their freedom, we have
the responsibility to support them in every way that we can in that fight.
Seth Magaziner: I
agree. It is clearly in America’s interest that Ukraine be successful in this
effort. You cannot allow not only Vladimir Putin, but other dictators around
the world to feel that they can invade a peaceful democratic nation without
consequence. They cannot be allowed to succeed. I think that this is an area
where the loudest voices in the room on the Republican side do not represent
the majority. There are absolutely far right elements – Marjorie Taylor Green,
Tucker Carlson, others – who are unabashedly pro-Putin and siding with a
repressive dictator over a democratic ally. But I don’t think that represents
most Republicans. It certainly doesn’t represent most Americans. So my hope is
that the bipartisan support for Ukraine will continue in the next Congress –
but it’s going to be rockier because after the Speakership race, the Marjorie
Taylor Greens of the world feel emboldened and they’re going to be vocal.
Can you help Uprise RI?
Funding for our reporting relies on the generosity of readers like you. Our independence allows us to write stories that hold RI state and local government officials accountable. All of our stories are free and available to everyone. But your support is essential to keeping Steve on the beat, covering the costs of reporting our stories. If you are able to, please support us. Every contribution, big or small is so valuable. You provide the motivation and financial support to keep doing what we do. Thank you.